Hi Eric, so good to see you. Thank you so so so much for being my inaugural guest to the kickoff and launch of the EEcosystem podcast, so good to see you. Hey, it's great to see you and congratulations on starting this new podcast i think it's really exciting and I am so honored to be your your first guest here i'm looking forward to listening in on all the other guests that you bring in Thank you. I’m excited. This is a passion project and I'm really excited to get to 2:03 do this work so thank you again well um i thought we'd start off at an 2:09 interesting place, because we've talked lots of times and i thought…inquiring minds want to know How in the world 2:21 did you ever get started going down the path of signal integrity when you had 2:28 a doctorate in physics and cosmology and then of course you drifted into somehow pcb design and and then you 2:36 became the dean of the signal integrity academy how did that happen 2:42 you know it is a really good question because it's one of those cases where it was not by design i literally fell into 2:49 it and just took advantage of opportunities as they came up and and you know you've said it before i kind of 2:55 followed my passion what i was interested in and you know it's the uh japanese philosophy of ikigao i think 3:01 we've talked about that yeah you want to find what is something that you have a talent for what is 3:07 something you really love doing what can you make money at and what can you do that 3:13 adds to your karma bank that returns some value to the world and uh and i 3:18 it was you know i just followed the opportunities to discover what did i really love and what was i good at and 3:25 how could i make money and what was the value and i you know like you said i got my degrees in physics in lasers quantum 3:32 optics cosmology uh and you know my mother even told me when i told her i got my phd in 3:38 cosmology and said what you look in the one adds and there's cosmologists wanted to apply here 3:44 i mean you know it's not very many sloths for that and so my my first job out of graduate school is at bell labs 3:50 uh in uh new jersey and uh i joined a group of bunch of chemists as the token 3:57 physicist and they were working on new interconnect technology in the laminates 4:02 and print circuit board and at that time multi-chip modules and they were building these 4:09 structures physical structures with different laminate materials and conductors but they didn't unders 4:15 they were chemists they didn't understand the electrical properties that were required and that's really what got me started 4:21 into signal integrity it was understanding what were the requirements on the 4:27 materials for applications in high-speed interconnects and so i learned 4:33 everything in the street and talking to the experts at bell labs on 4:38 interconnects and multi-chip modules and signals on on transmission lines and 4:44 there was a a fellow aj aj reynolds 4:49 uh reynold who was at bell labs and whippany i think who was 4:54 an expert on prince circuit board he was like one of the fathers at bell labs on print a circuit board and i learned a 5:00 lot from him and other you know experts there and um and then 5:05 that was my first introduction of the field and then i joined ray kim corporation and did a lot of things 5:11 there they were famous for taking special functions of materials for 5:17 different applications they invented heat shrink tubing poly switch fuses and 5:23 i i joined a startup spin-off from raycam that was building multi-chip modules and 5:28 there the the the problem was it was thin film technology it's a really really fine lines mic it was it was like 5:34 uh one mil wide lines which right 40 years ago was revolutionary 5:40 and and again same thing we were trying to sell to engineers and we need to explain to them 5:48 why this was great technology and they worried about electrical properties and so when i went around i was doing 5:55 technical marketing and i went around to talk to these guys and realized they didn't understand electrical properties of interconnects and i had to learn it 6:02 and explain to them and you know the golden rule when you're selling a technology push solution rather than a 6:08 marketplace you have to first explain what their problem is and why what we've 6:14 got is the solution to their problem right and and so i developed a lot of 6:19 material that talked about what your real problem is you're trying to solve what are the electrical issues 6:26 in your interconnection why do you want things smaller controlled impedance 6:31 good return paths why why is that important for you and here is a solution 6:37 that does all these things that i told you is really important and that was how we were selling our 6:42 multi-chip module technology and i would go around to companies you know worked with cray i worked with 6:48 cisco uh worked with uh at the time it was uh dak and and all big computer 6:54 companies hp right and i would talk to their engineers and explain hey here's the problem you have and here's our 7:00 solution for it and and so i developed you know kind of training material for that as well well this is how you became 7:06 a teacher too well i always wanted and right true confession i actually applied 7:14 for uh teaching faculty teaching positions 30 years ago and i i applied 40 different 7:21 universities zero response i got three responses all saying uh forget it not interested 7:29 and and i asked well how come and they said yeah i was 10 years in industry phd physics 10 years in industry right and 7:36 they all said if you really want to get a teaching position you need to publish more physics you should go back and get 7:42 a postdoc position spend a couple years and then you can get a fact i said forget it and get it and look at how 7:50 things have turned i ended up building a business based on teaching and made a lot more money than any 7:55 faculty guy ever did doing the same thing they were doing but i realized that you know this is part of that that 8:02 opportunity that in going around and talking to companies and explaining oh this is what signal integrity is this is 8:08 why you have to worry about these problems here's the solution for it i was approached by um a local emc or ieee 8:16 maybe it was emc society chapter they said boy this is great stuff how would you like to do a two hour 8:22 presentation for the ieee local group to do a training and i said sure and so we 8:28 had 150 folks there was in santa clara 150 folks joined us for two hours i did 8:34 this and i realized wow there's a real opportunity here to do these trainings and so my wife and i put 8:41 together a company that was started as bogutin enterprises and we realized this 8:46 is an opportunity to provide training of stuff that engineers just 8:52 haven't gotten i never learned it in college i've got to work phd i never learned it it's not taught in electrical 8:58 engineering departments and yet it's really really important um and so this was a niche opportunity that 9:04 companies in industry were willing to pay to send their engineers to get this training and we built our business up 9:11 did this for 20 some years literally traveled around the world we recorded them 9:17 and um and we put them all when when our company got acquired by lacroix we took 9:22 all the courses that i did recorded them and then posted them online and that has become the signal integrity academy 9:29 and so all of those courses i used to do are all available for anybody to view and i think so 9:36 full disclosure i'm a professor at university of colorado in boulder you know my dream come true what 9:41 i've wanted to do all my life um but i'm also a fellow with tulane and la croix i've continued the connection 9:48 there and teledon lacroix has made available to you a coupon code that you can give out to 9:55 all of your listeners so they can get a three-month free access to all the content on the signal integrity academy 10:02 so thank you for that lovely gift yes is making that available for you 10:08 so yes for listeners a little shameless plug here jumping in and they've given 10:13 us a promo code you can go to the ecosystem.com i'll throw that in the show notes for you 10:19 and you can go to the signal integrity academy and you can use the promo code eeco22 10:27 for the ecosystem and you can get 90 days for free and i don't know it's like 10:33 a 100 bucks a month or something like that it's it's a nice savings and just you can 10:38 take in all that good all the wisdom of eric bogatan so um 10:44 yeah completely free 100 access no credit card required um and and um so 10:52 try it out for three months you can probably go through most of the courses in the in the three months you can download everything from the website 10:57 it's just like having a full subscription so thank you for that celebratory launch 11:03 week gift that you helped facilitate and so and it really is neat to learn about your unlikely 11:09 path because those of us that don't have advanced degrees i always think like 11:16 how did i get here and most people i talk to that are in the hardware like the manufacturing assembly side that i 11:22 came from well i say none of us did this on purpose like it's such a quirky thing 11:28 but eric i always thought well you guys did this perfectly was this linear path and 11:34 so it's funny to hear that you know there's this little bit of magic 11:39 you know it i wouldn't say i randomly walked into it but i took advantage of opportunities and i found you know i 11:45 loved the content it's all about mass applied master's equations it's about 11:50 how to think about you know the electromagnetics of of interconnects and boundary conditions and it's real 11:56 practical and there's a lot of measurements and a lot of simulation involved and i love nothing more than 12:02 you know building things and measuring them and simulating and and seeing oh my gosh the measurement simulation they're 12:08 right on top of each other and that it all comes together such a for an engineer or scientist it's such a 12:13 satisfying feeling to know i understand that system so well i can predict it to 12:18 the pen width of the measurement which is it's like a it's very sad solving 12:25 problems right it's like i get it you know what i intended actually happened 12:30 and that you could do that a predictive way has to be really satisfying well you and i sort of share that like i've 12:36 worked with design engineers for decades and just trying to help them say get 12:42 boards builder does you know i would see these like oh my gosh you're missing huge parts 12:49 right of this or as more ees started designing boards which was no one knew that was going to 12:55 happen they didn't know anything about and so i could see like you said like wait there's an opportunity here 13:02 you know and then to find that like icky guy that you talked about where it's like man and 13:08 you know i sort of you know funny circumstance started talking about those things like you need to know this 13:15 and they're like this is great i'm like really so a little less formal than you but 13:22 it's important to pay attention to those opportunities yeah and and be flexible to adjust as you see times change 13:31 and you know it's interesting i think so that was you know 45 years ago when i got started in all this i think things 13:37 are changing because now this kind of information signal integrity paranoia emi now it's starting 13:43 to be taught more universities and here at cu one of the things that i've been working on with uh my colleague 13:50 professor pickett may is putting together a whole master's program exactly in this field um the the folks 13:56 at uh at uh rolla uh what is it must missed um institute of science and technology 14:04 mst they've been doing this for a long time feeding the industry with experienced engineers um we're starting 14:11 this program and i've been training on my own teaching a classroom here at sea a whole 14:16 masters in this field so that we will eventually be be populating the industry 14:21 with more skilled engineers that kind of gets so great and by the way for our listeners eric 14:28 has been sending me like his daily emails like the if if you're looking for an interesting 14:34 aspect to go into or this is it right if you want to develop 14:40 further education it's a hot job market too it's a hot job market like 14:46 uh you know the primes are out looking to fill these positions and they can't 14:51 find enough talent right now so did you say that master's program is going to be available online as well as input so 14:58 we're we're launching it uh spring of 2023. uh okay i'll send if i haven't already 15:04 i'll send you the link to the website for the high speed digital engineering professional master's program there will 15:10 be one or two classes we will launch one class uh that could be done remotely so 15:17 that you don't have to be on campus most of the classes you have to be on campus for but we'll have one launched in the 15:23 spring that you could take remotely off off-site and we hope to add 15:29 a total of three that could be done off-site but most of them are really designed to be on-site 15:35 okay so let's jump right into your appendix a pcb design guidelines 15:44 oh it's you and your titles eric um i have to look at my notes to minimize signal integrity problems yeah 15:51 um so you wrote this a while ago if i'm not mistaken um what 15:58 why did you write it and then we're going to jump and talk about you know to our listeners give them a 16:03 couple of those tips and then send them over to get yeah since obviously we can't cover all 16:08 100 right now well but tell us a little bit about the book first of all like and what inspired you to do it when i 16:15 started out you know teaching all these classes um i i've always loved writing i've written a number of books on 16:22 packaging technology and some other things in the past and i was approached by prentice hall to 16:28 write a book on one of my classes and you know the the basic course i do 16:33 the introduction is essential principles of signal integrity and and so i don't remember maybe like 2002 or one or 16:41 something like that three or four they asked me to write a book and uh and so i did and that was the first one that i 16:46 did with apprentice hall on signal and power integrity simplified uh and uh and and in that book 16:53 i added i so the book is really about you know the essential principles it's 16:58 it's about right transmission lines about crosstalk velocity lines differential pairs all 17:04 that kind of stuff and i offered so one of the things i'm a big believer in is when you want to do 17:10 an estimate ahead of time you know when you design something you're going to have a native what's it going to how it's going to perform 17:16 there's three levels of tools to use to estimate there's rules of thumb there are analytical 17:22 approximations and there are numerical simulation tools and the the rules of thumb 17:28 are incredibly powerful because that's how you gain intuition it doesn't 17:33 require a lot of effort to get there it's just really simple estimates so you can get a ideas is it you know one 17:40 nanosecond or is it 20 nanoseconds going is it right one nanohenry desert 50 nanohenries and and so throughout the 17:48 book i introduced a lot of rules of thumb and then i introduced okay how do 17:53 we use that to establish design guidelines and and as i went through each of the chapters introducing this along the way 18:00 i said you know there are a lot of these really good ones scattered out of the book i should just pull them together all in one place and so i added two 18:08 appendix actually i think there are three appendices to the book there is okay i pulled together all of the rules 18:14 of thumb so i have appendix b was 100 rules of thumb and appendix a 18:20 was 100 design guidelines and okay and after i joined telenine 18:25 lacroix we said hey you know this appendix a the 100 design guidelines 18:30 it's so popular everybody keeps asking me about it we should just pull it out into a little booklet and so it's 18:35 hillary lustig's idea to take the appendix a and put it in a little pocket guide it literally is a pocket guide and 18:43 and so if you come to any of the uh conferences where telling the crazy exhibiting you can get one of the little 18:49 pocket guides that fits literally they have a they have so they have a hard copy it's yeah we used to give them 18:56 out at all the conferences and so uh what we now have is because we don't go to so many chronos anymore we have 19:03 the pdf copy of it but it looks just like what the pocket guide is nice and so we pulled this out and i 19:09 edited it and and updated it but it's basically uh the most common uh design 19:16 principles uh design it's the design guideline for uh solving or minimizing signal 19:22 integrity power integrity emi kind of problems um and uh and so i pulled it out from each of the chapters as all all 19:28 in one place um and we've got a whole bunch of these now we've got this one there's another 19:33 one that is i i love lists and so we have uh 19:39 all engineers live lists yeah it's easy to keep track of things and so there's another one that's my book of lit i have 19:44 10 10 different lists and that's another little pocket guide that's out there uh we'll probably is that available on 19:51 signal integrity academy as well i don't think that one is but again um i 19:57 i think hillary might make that available as a um okay well 20:03 so but bug her about that and she may okay oh well copy that to give out to your readers and listeners okay again 20:09 hillary tell the dialogue lacroix thank you so much for helping us celebrate and 20:15 lending us eric and this great book and um and to our listeners again not only can 20:21 you get the 90 days of signal integrity academy 20:27 you can also download the appendix a pcb design guidelines to help you avoid 20:32 signal integrity problems so we're gonna that is also available at 20:38 the ecosystem and that's the doubleecosystem.com you can go download it for free there 20:45 plus we're gonna have a newsletter and have neat people like eric featured in there so um yeah go over there and you can 20:51 download that and get get both those as part of our i'm calling this the ims pregame blitz 20:58 week right so um are you going to be at all times i am so i'm looking forward to seeing 21:04 you there i know you said you're going to pop over we'll talk about that in a minute i'm going to ask you about that 21:09 um do you have you know one or two of those tips like that you can share with the 21:15 audience so they could have something they could maybe like have a quick take away for today sure so let's see okay so 21:22 there are four sections about signal integrity about crosstalk or signal quality i think crosstalk pdn and emi 21:30 and so like one of them for um uh signal quality is uh and it relates 21:35 to crosstalk as well when you have single-ended signals and they're transitioning from one layer to another 21:42 layer the you have to pay as much attention to the return current as the signal and we 21:48 often design the board with beautiful wonderful signal vias that transition the signal from the top layer to the or 21:55 some other layer but you have to also worry about the return current and so one of the rules 22:00 is the design guideline says when you transition from uh one signal layer to another signal 22:07 layer and you have a signal via always try to add an adjacent return via and uh 22:13 and that way you provide a low impedance path for the return current and it dramatically reduces 22:19 uh signal signal crosstalk through the the planes um interesting so that says perfect 22:25 sense if you want to do that though you can't have you know power and ground plane is the two references we can't short them out with a via and so that 22:32 says hey always try to another design guys always try to use the same voltage return plane so that you can have a 22:40 return via connecting them and that's the primary reason so that you can have a return view because that's always 22:45 going to be the lowest impedance path between the the two planes where the 22:50 return current has to flow so that's an example and you know that's a good one that it and 22:56 we got a hundred of these really good ones in here so a lot of you know a lot of good ones yeah well let me ask you this what happens if 23:03 you don't do that you get more crosstalk um if you uh uh in fact one of the let's 23:09 see where do i do that oh you know what i'm doing another webinar uh june 14th 23:16 with uh lacroix and i i so in one of the classes i teach on print 23:21 circuit board design this is one of the principles that we teach in the class also in my textbook that just came out 23:27 on prototyping design and we built a test board it's a four 23:32 layer board it's got signals on the top signals on the bottom two planes in the middle and we drive a bunch of signals 23:38 from the top to the bottom layer we measure the crosstalk on one of those signal lines and we use two different 23:45 board designs one that has no return vias and then one that has a bunch of return vias and you can see you can 23:51 measure dramatically the crosstalk difference between these it's it's like in one case you have like 23:58 300 400 millivolts of crosstalk in the other case you have 10 millivolts of crosstalk wow 24:04 order of magnitude or more difference by adding the return vias so that's very cool so 24:10 we didn't talk about this ahead of time but can you send me the information to your webinar sure i'll send you the 24:17 link okay to the webinar okay i'll get that from you later but i'm sure people now that you've teased it now people 24:24 want to go in fact the whole webinar is about switching noise in general what some of 24:29 the sources are how do you measure it and how do you design it out and it's you know this theme of 24:34 brilliant of the design the building the measuring the analysis it closes the 24:40 loop and gives you that real visceral sense of why you want to do these design features and that's what we teach in our 24:45 classes here um that's what i think engineers love seeing and and um and that's what i try to do all my webinars 24:51 about these days well that's kind of my point with choosing the name the ecosystem is 24:58 trying to give that more um holistic system based approach 25:03 because that's what's needed and if you don't you know those unintended consequences that'll drive 25:10 you nuts and they're expensive and they're timely time consuming 25:16 they're time-consuming and so um that's perfect you know you and i share 25:22 that that ideologically although you do it obviously with much more technical depth 25:27 than i could um but it's okay because i just know you you know all the right players 25:34 i do i do and i know i i know enough to know who the who the 25:40 good ones are and that they're talking about the right stuff who i'm sure we'll be seeing on your podcasts in the future 25:46 i know thank you i'm very excited um okay let's 25:52 jump to because you have your hands in so 25:57 much it cracks me up but you and i share uh some longtime friendships and 26:03 relationships with our delightful media sponsor which is 26:08 signal integrity journal who's a supporter of the ecosystem podcast so thank you 26:13 again to signal integrity journal and eric bogatan just happens to be the technical editor because you know he's 26:20 got so much time so can you tell our listeners a little bit about signal integrity journal kind of 26:27 what makes it unique and then tell us about how you became the technical editor 26:33 sure so let me do the last one first because um okay so i've known janine love for years because she was involved 26:39 in designcon and got to know her right really delightful person easy to work with really sharp 26:45 and and she is associated with um horizon house publication right and they 26:51 do microwave journal and microwave journal is they've been over like 35 years and 26:58 been addressing technical issues in the microwave industry did you know that i used to guest blog 27:04 for that did you really okay so you've been part of the family for a long time for a long long time since like 27:11 2009 or 10. yeah they and they have a great reputation they they have a lot of really great technical content as well 27:18 as industry content too and so um gene was having discussions with the publisher 27:24 um at uh carl sheffers and and pat hindle the editor of micro journal and 27:30 they were saying you know we should do one of these for signal integrity and it naturally you know they had the 27:36 microwave journal why not signal integrity journal and so they started the discussion and because of i i knew janine from designcon 27:43 goes i got somebody yeah so i i know someone and so we all got together we had a lot of discussions it was such a 27:50 great idea because uh the whole idea originally was really built on three 27:56 premises one is to you know your word before holistic to take a holistic approach for signal 28:02 integrity power integrity emi you know traditionally they've been so separate but they have a lot of overlap and so 28:09 the theme for the signal integrity journal in fact in the promo material for it or the premier issue we have 28:15 those three venn diagrams of signal integrity power integrity emi and we show where they intersect and that's 28:21 what we wanted the si journal to cover is that holistic uh overview of all three areas where they 28:28 are separate where they interact with each other and when they overlap completely and so that's well you know 28:33 yeah your your dear friend and mine steve sandler said something really funny one time when i did pause with him 28:40 he's like i don't think the electrons say i'm a signal integrity i'm a power 28:46 integrity no i'm an emi he goes they're electrons right and you know 28:52 trying to like they just all act differently and so we classify them and i'm like that's funny and you know that 28:58 that's a really important point because the problems that we deal with they don't define themselves by i'm a single 29:04 integrity problem right we do that on the outside in order to you know define disciplines around them yeah but the 29:10 problems are interdisciplinary they're system related generally and that's what we wanted the si journal to focus on is 29:17 the system approach to solving these hype high-speed digital engineering 29:22 problems so that was the first key element of it the second ones there is 29:27 and i mean this well i have to say in the most loving way but if you if you are familiar with a lot of 29:34 the other magazines that have been out there and websites and youtube there's a lot of crap out there and a lot of crap there 29:42 there is and the frustration that i have as a reader and so many other my colleagues is oh my gosh the titles 29:49 sound great but when you invest your time to go into the details oh it's a waste of my time and we said right at 29:55 the beginning we don't want our readers to waste their time in our content yeah we want top shelf 30:02 high value content and so we started right at the beginning with an editorial advisory board and we said we're going 30:08 to we're going to curate the content so that guaranteed if you spend time to 30:13 read the articles view the webinars go to the website browse through it you're going to get 30:19 high value content out it's not going to waste your time well what i i'm sorry eric what i love 30:25 and appreciated so much about microwave journal and signal integrity journal because i'm 30:31 like you it's like you see people actually reading or 30:36 taking in bad content put it in place and it's expensive and painful and it 30:42 hurts when you do it and you feel like an idiot and and engineers are so dependent on good 30:49 quality education and it doesn't identify itself right so it's like how to know and what i 30:56 appreciate about those publications if they they've taken the time that they're peer-reviewed so more than one pair of 31:02 eyes because you know you can all argue about this stuff but there's enough consensus and it's peer reviewed 31:10 that you know when you read it it is curated carefully to be solution oriented but then you 31:16 know okay more than one set of eyeballs has been on this right and so 31:23 i again i'm going to aim high as i put the ecosystem together to try to aspire to 31:29 that model because i think bad ideas abound 31:35 and it's just painful yeah it's painful i think that's really the value of editors as as curators 31:42 that they absolutely and if you trust the judgment of your editor and their advisory board then you have confidence 31:48 in the quality of what you're going to be spending your time in so i think that's and 31:54 that's why i have a great appreciation for really good editors absolutely it's a good point it's a good 32:00 point yeah so that's the side journal so it's that place to be yeah so again 32:07 nice shout out to our our mutual friends at signal integrity journal and microwave journal and i will share 32:16 um links to those publications it's free and it's quality so 32:21 um and fun fact eric bokerton just started a podcast 32:27 so why don't you talk about that new fun venture okay so i i was on so many 32:32 podcasts with you i took notes of how you do your podcast because i learned so much from from your style having a 32:38 conversation and and that's what so janine approached me and said hey you know we should do everybody's doing we 32:44 should do a podcast so um we do it's called the signal integrity journal fundamentals podcast um and it is 32:51 literally i just you know i call up a buddy of mine and we just have a conversation i learned you know yeah 32:56 asked to say i i do the things you're doing because that's who i learned it from yeah i asked about how they got started 33:01 in this what they're doing and then we go off in tangents on technical things and it's my chance to ask them questions 33:09 and it's not just you know i get a script and i'm asking a question we're having a conversation and i let people 33:16 listen in on our conversation um everybody likes to be a little voyeuristic and listening to other 33:22 people's conversations i don't know what it is and me you know guilty as charged i listen to a lot of podcasts either on 33:28 youtube or a podcast app because it's organic and it's authentic and these 33:34 little gems come out like there is some planning involved but it's pretty loose like 33:39 so anyways i binged like on one day five of them and some of the people i knew like al 33:46 nebs and bert samanovitch and whatever but obviously i did like five in a row like 33:53 i got sucked in so anyways for our listeners i'll put the link there as 33:59 well to go check into eric's podcast and definitely go get the free subscription to signal 34:04 integrity journal and if you're into rf microwave millimeter wave you can also hop over to microwave journal as well 34:11 because it's really good quality content okay what else do we oh okay now we can 34:16 jam about ims so this week as i said is the uh this is launch week for the ecosystem 34:23 podcast and i'm calling it the ims pregame blitz so we're having four straight days 34:29 of people that have um either going to ims or speaking or a company 34:35 i did john coonrod at rogers last week and i know you're going there 34:40 but i don't know what you're doing there but i hope to see you there and of course you have all the relationships 34:45 with signal integrity journal or horizon house folks that actually put that show on yeah um 34:52 so what's your agenda for next week uh well i'm not sure i have one yet but 34:57 i'm just going there i'm actually going as press i'm going as technical letter for situation okay i'm going to be interviewing um 35:04 checking on some of the vendors and some of the new technologies that i find there uh some of the new instruments 35:10 that are are listed there um i'll probably go to a couple of workshops but um microwave rf is not really my 35:17 specialty so i'm not an expert but i'll look for what are some of the technologies that overlap with signal 35:23 integrity and emi and power integrity um and then i'm going to learn too um so 35:30 janine is the event coordinator i think event manager for the show and because it's in denver 35:35 and you know we've got our our university here um a number of my students that 35:40 are around over the summer are going to actually help out at the show they'll be around there oh good um so i'm going to 35:46 learn and talk to folks see all the the vendors that have new stuff there yeah 35:51 and i hope i'll i will run into you and janine maybe we'll do dinner or get together while it would be so fun down 35:57 there and if any of your listeners are there and they run into me i'd love to have them grab me and say hello 36:03 okay again if you're if if you're going to ims please you know connect with eric 36:08 and i on linkedin or you know keep an eye out we're both going to be there i'm going to be there 36:13 as sort of media too as i'm launching the ecosystem um podcast but 36:20 another fun fact um in 2015 i was on the publicity 36:26 committee for ims so i'm actually on the steering committee and i'm on it again so i'm actually the co-chair for the 36:32 publicity for next year in san diego and i got asked to do it like 36:38 eight years ago and i'm like okay whatever put my name in the hat and here we are i just happen to be launching and 36:45 moving back into that more you know high frequency high um complexity side of the business so 36:51 i've sort of been out of that community for a while so for me it's going to be a big reunion 36:57 and and um getting plugged back into that that site of my career so again for 37:02 everybody there it will be and oh my gosh eric it's like i don't know what their turnout but i've 37:08 been to shows where 20 000 people show up it's a massive show yeah um and a 37:14 great community and people are so generous with you know sharing information and they're 37:19 a fun group they're a really fun group brilliant i feel so outstripped but 37:24 you know used to that you bring your own expertise i do i do thank you 37:32 um so okay so ims that'll be in the show note and i can't wait to see you in 37:38 person which will be really fun um i loosely talked to pat hindell at 37:44 signal integrity journal about uh maybe in the future maybe in san diego 37:50 actually podcasting from there so that would be cool yeah maybe next year 37:55 we'll be podcasting a live podcast yeah and get some of those you know the 38:01 keynotes the they have a really great women and microwaves group there too that i really like this run by uh sherry 38:08 hess and so it's a great they do a really great job and i'm glad to see 38:15 uh janine and then their former events as kristin and um they're going to be a dynamic 38:22 team so looking forward to that all right um 38:28 okay lastly we're running low on time and i know you have to go and you're in your lab right now on 38:34 campus um what other projects are you working on right now you mentioned the webinar 38:39 which i'll add is there anything else you'd like to share with the audience before i let you know the big thing that we've got going as our launch of 38:47 our professional master's program in high-speed digital engineering 38:52 oh wow this is going to be we're launching it in the spring of 2023 it's going to be a 38:58 full two-year master's program that will allow specialty in it's a basically a master's in electrical engineering but a 39:05 specialty in high-speed digital engineering signal integrity power integrity emi so it's um 30 credits which is a 39:13 traditional masters it's ten classes taken over a two-year period um we have 39:18 um a number of faculty that will be teaching i'll be teaching some uh we have other faculty here that will teach 39:24 them that'll be about signing tv about s parameters about using simulation tools 39:29 computational electromagnetics about learning maxwell's equations specifically for signal integrity uh 39:37 we'll have a course on the emi and emi control and a course on 39:43 print circuit board design both for introductory and an advanced version so it's a full 39:48 curriculum and i'll send you the link for the master's program i think registration 39:55 opens in july uh for our spring semester perfect uh and yeah and again we'll have uh one course 40:03 initially launched that can be done remotely the others will be on site and then 40:08 two more remote courses uh coming up over the next year or so so that's the that's what's taking up a lot of my time 40:14 and of course the classes that i teach here i'm in my you can see behind me here this is our capstone lab there's 40:20 senior design lab that i teach now and we're i'm working here this summer with a bunch of students we're revising 40:26 the the lab and the curriculum and it's really a lot of fun when i used to oversee that some of the 40:33 educational programs at all times you know i saw a lot of capstone projects but i'd love to be in your capstone 40:40 project because i'm sure you learn a lot where a lot of seniors like i did such a simple dumb thing in my capstone and now 40:47 i have to like drink from the fire hose now that i have a job so i'm sure you're like giving them some chops well that's 40:55 very exciting okay one last grand finale announcement and i might be getting 41:00 ahead of my skis here a little bit but to our audience eric and i are conspiring in the background 41:07 um to do a live class with eric bogatan a day and a half in boulder 41:12 hopefully by the time we publish this on the 14th we'll have more details on that at the ecosystem 41:19 and that's because we don't have enough things to do we don't we don't yeah yeah yeah yeah exactly 41:25 you know so anyways um that should be really fun and that would be eric talking about transmission lines he has 41:32 two books on two books on transmission lines right yeah and so he's going to talk about 41:39 transmission lines it'll i'm calling it eric help me with the name i'm thinking the electronics master class series what 41:46 do you think okay i think this one's gonna help me transmission lines 101 41:51 okay kind of the introduction to okay designing characterizing uh 41:56 measuring building okay we'll come up with a good title together we've done that before so but again go 42:04 to the ecosystem theEEcosystem.com and hopefully knock on 42:10 wood um there'll be information for you to register there if not just keep coming back so 42:16 again eric thank you so much it's always a delight to be with you judy 42:22 okay well again tour listeners thanks for joining us for season one, 42:27 episode one of the eecosystem podcast we hope to bring you a lot more great guests like eric bogatan we thank you so 42:33 much for joining us today be sure to check out the show notes and subscribe to the podcast you don't miss anybody 42:40 like Eric thanks so much for being with us today we'll see you next time until then remember to always stay connected to the EEcosystem.