Judy Warner (00:01.41) Hi Seth, it's so good to see you today and I'm really looking forward to sharing you with our engineering community and hopefully yours and learn a lot more about KeyCAD. Seth (00:14.016) Well, it's great to be here, Judy. I'm really thrilled to get a chance to chat a little bit about this. Judy Warner (00:21.654) Well, just for our listeners' sake, fun fact is both Seth and I were at DesignCon earlier this year, and we'd never met, but kind of knew tangentially about one another, and we got to meet in person and we got to chatting and found so much in common and I thought, boy, our community would really love to learn more about KeyCad from inside the orcs. So Why don't you start off, Seth, by introducing yourself, your background both professionally and at Key Cat and what your day to day looks like? Seth (01:00.224) Sure. so my name is Seth Hilbrand. I'm one of the one of the lead developers of the Key CAD EDA project. And people know Key CAD kind of as an open source project. And in about seven years ago now, we decided that we needed to to grow Key CAD, we we needed to provide businesses specifically with more options to facilitate what they need specifically. And what businesses needed were a guarantee of existence, right? The that software is going to is going to be there, that support is going to be there, that training is available. We needed the option of building out things that are specific to a the business needs. And so with that in mind, I founded the company KeyCAD Services Corporation in 2019. And we've been doing this work now for for the past six years or six, seven years now. And our portfolio of clients has continually expanded. We we are We are a self-funded organization. So this is not we don't have outside investors. We focus very specifically on the needs of our clients and of the keycag community as a whole. So all of our focus is directed externally, is directed very much toward the the People who are using KeyCAD on a day-to-day basis to get their job done, to build the next generation of really cool electronics. So personally, I I I came into KeyCAD after doing circuit design for a number of years in the academic field. So I was a physicist for a number of years and Seth (03:19.823) As part of that, the experimental physics, we had to build a lot of unique things. the experimental physics, you can't go out to Radio Shack or Walmart and buy a object, you know, buy buy the test thing off the shelf. You have to you have to build it. And you're so you're building a lot of really unique things. You're building it in extreme environments, things that are down to milli-celvin. Above absolute zero, things that are being spun around at 50, 60 G, things that are floating up in outer space, any number of things, unique environments. The electronics development on that front was always a challenge, it was always interesting. And when we needed something that the commercial world wasn't providing because it you know it was specifically it was very niche so it didn't have a a real market for a commercial company to build it, KeyCad was an option for us. And I started to build things with that and that were specifically designed for what we needed in the moment. And as that grew into a larger and larger Judy Warner (04:20.865) Mm-hmm. Seth (04:46.109) part of my job, I saw an opportunity to help others who were in a similar situation and it bring the idea of a free, high-quality software package to a to a larger community. And as the years go by, this is kind of been born born out. We we grow bit bit by bit every year, but it's always a positive growth. We're always expanding. We're bringing more engineers into the community. So it's a it's been a a great few years and I'm looking forward to seeing what we can build as a an engineering community in the future. Judy Warner (05:39.67) Well, I did a little a little research on key cadges for my own edification and I saw that it's thirty five years old and it did start at a university, which of course, since I have a background at Altium is exactly where Altium was born, was at a university in Australia and with people frustrated that they wanted to build things and didn't have the tool. Seth (05:59.284) Mm-hmm. Judy Warner (06:08.209) But on your end, I also saw that some of your supporters have been things like the CERN accelerator. So, and the work you're doing with physics is these are where I I would imagine you're sort of pushing out as far as you can to the edges of physics and and and trying to do things. So that is very unique. Seth (06:16.927) Mm-hmm. Seth (06:32.925) Yeah, it it is a so it's an origin story, but it's not our future, right? So this is we we came out of this came out of this sort of need to have access to tools that were too expensive, were not able to be shared, or you had to have Judy Warner (06:37.439) Right. Right. Exactly. Judy Warner (06:47.341) Mm-hmm. Seth (07:01.231) A specific license to do this, or it was artificially limited. There are all sorts of things that were bugging us in that didn't really work. when I worked in the physics community, we would have collaborations that spanned countries all around the world. And the idea that our 500-person collaboration needed a license for everyone. Judy Warner (07:11.895) Right. Seth (07:30.624) Who wanted to touch the circuit, it just didn't fit. It it's not that it was a bad model, it it worked for what it was built for. Like this commercial model worked for what it was built for. It didn't work for us. And so building that out was a natural outgrowth. And it turns out it really works for a lot of businesses too. So what we've been focused on, we developed out of academia, but that hasn't Judy Warner (07:34.465) Right. Judy Warner (07:41.825) Mm-hmm. Judy Warner (07:49.879) Mm-hmm. Seth (08:00.669) That is at this point very much a a work that we like to support, but it's not our focus. Our focus is on the business customer at the moment, because we've we've hit all of these markers that the research community needs. We've we've already done that. So so now the challenge is. Judy Warner (08:19.298) Right. Judy Warner (08:22.774) Right. Mm-hmm. Right. Seth (08:29.545) How do we identify and solve the problems that a small business or medium-sized business or even the Fortune 500 company has with their design and layout and development of circuit boards? And that's where KeyCAD is is focused right now and where KeyCAD Services is looking to build. Judy Warner (08:42.157) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Judy Warner (08:51.104) Uh-huh. Judy Warner (08:58.177) Well, one of the opportunities I wanted to pack with you here is exactly that. I think that my perception and I think a lot of perception of KeyCat is probably a little bit dated, if they haven't encountered it directly or used it, which is that it's a hobbyist tool or for students for but it's not applicable for businesses. It's, you know, non profit, it's Seth (09:17.247) Mm-hmm. Judy Warner (09:23.665) So I think there I would like to do a little myth busting right there. So let's start out with me asking you regarding those business clients is what would our audience be surprised to learn about Key CAD if they have that sort of dated perception of Key CAD? Seth (09:26.12) Mm. Seth (09:44.23) Sure. so let's see. There there was a there was an interesting social media post a couple couple days, maybe a couple weeks ago, in which someone related the story of how the aerospace industry came to Southern California. And it came to Southern California with the with these students who were Doing their rocket experiments in the early 1900s and they built out turned out that you know it was a little bit too dangerous for for the Caltech. They so they sent them over to the this JPL and started the jet propulsion laboratory near near JPL. And then you had all of these really smart rocketry people. So when we were Judy Warner (10:34.519) Mm-hmm. Seth (10:42.185) Doing the research on jet engines when we were doing research on the law space launches, when all of these you needed smart people, so you built your company where the smart people were, and that was that was here in Southern California. And as it built out, this became a a mecca really for the aerospace industry writ large. And they they're Judy Warner (10:57.462) Mm. Seth (11:12.735) Someone took a picture, screen capture of of kind of the LA basin and put pins in all of the different aerospace companies, your your Boeings, your your spin launch, your your your Rocket Lab, your you know, all of these companies that have ba headquarters or large research presences in Southern California and just filled the entire map. Filled the entire map. And we're key CAD services, like we're smack dab in the middle. We're in we're in Long Beach, California. So we're smack dab in the middle of this. And I saw that. I was like, look at that, you know, and I put the key CAD services pin like right right in Long Beach. It's like, look at look at this. We're we're we're part of this. And I started counting. I was counting around and there were thirty or so different aerospace companies that list listed on this. And I was counting over half of them are key CAD shops. They're they are primarily using key CAD to design their electronics for the aerospace industry. We are building out what the future of aerospace is and you know whether it's drones or or gravity launch or any of the any of the new propulsion systems, these companies that are being founded right now in Southern California because we have this incredible reservoir of talent here are choosing key CAD. They they don't have to. They're choosing Key CAD. They're choosing Key CAD because that's where they're Judy Warner (13:00.459) Mm. Seth (13:09.273) new talent is. That's where people who are, you know, they're in high school they were like fidgeting with with model rockets or electronics. They they weren't using commercial software. They they were using keyCAD because that's what because we made that available to them. And they weren't great engineers in high school. But they started, they got their feet wet. And so they, when they go off to college and do engineering in college, they already know how to work with this software. It gives them a leg up and they get better and better faster and faster and builds this engineering talent pool in such a way that, you know, they graduate from college. They can use any software. They they're really smart. They use any software you throw in front of them. And Key CAD is just one of those tools, but it's the one that they gravitate toward. The the if you're looking for new engineering talent you they might have used Expedition, they might have used Pads, they might have used Ultium, they definitely used KeyCAD for something. Judy Warner (14:07.85) Mm-hmm. Judy Warner (14:30.112) Well, you've taken away the friction point and I think that's amazing because a lot of times kids in high school is that the time that they're starting to define what it is they're interested in in the world, what they might want to do in college, what they might want to do in a career, but you know, at that point it's just sort of play and nebulous. It's so nebulous. And Seth (14:47.263) Mm-hmm. Seth (14:55.259) Nebulous. Mm-hmm. Judy Warner (14:59.264) But they need a sandbox to get in to try these things out. And there's no barrier to entry there. So I can see why this sort of has caught on. I will tell you that when I was at Altium, my perception was it's like Expedition, Cadence Allegro, Altium Designer, like these are the professional tools and everything else sort of fell under. But there is PAD and there is Eagle and there Seth (15:02.153) Right. Seth (15:18.737) Is it? Judy Warner (15:28.288) you know, and I always perceived like Key CAD was going to remain in this maker hobbyist space. But what I've observed over the lack six, seven years is I keep hearing people talk about Key CAD professional engineers on LinkedIn talking about, wow, these capabilities are like they're getting better and better and better to where maybe I don't need to break the bank if I'm a smaller design team or or if it's a larger and this is an easier way to do it or I need the community to support it. And so it really has evolved, but I've seen it from afar. And so I'm really interested in what capabilities, you know, in the last seven years have helped KeyCat transition in perception and use to where now you're being used inside of aerospace companies. Seth (16:21.343) Sure. Judy Warner (16:25.28) What are the capabilities that are driving that kind of adoption at at, you know, a enterprise or Miller, you know, Seth (16:34.175) Sure. Yeah. The change that happens is different for every company. And every version that comes out from 5.0 to we're currently on 10.0, every version that comes out, there's some feature that someone from one company they'll call me up and they'll be like, you finally put this feature in. Yes, we can use. we could use key CAD now that we have this feature. And for some it was pads full pad stack support. That was a big one that came in that was was very very brought up the brought up the levels. For some it's it's job sets, the ability to create reproducible patterns in your in your production processes. For some, it was variance. So supporting variance in your in your schematic capture. These are big ones. The custom design rule engine was was huge for a lot of for a lot of companies. The ability to very precisely define how rules, DRC rules are going to apply in your circuit and then ensure that those are followed. Those are followed in during the routing process, during the placement process, and then with a final full design rule check. There those were those were big things, but I think the the argument that companies that that really sticks for companies Judy Warner (18:02.316) Mm-hmm. Seth (18:29.647) is whenever I talk to engineers or or someone in the in the le on the legal team, I can like this is a super easy for me to sell a legal team because I can I can say, look, we provide a fully specified text-based file format that you can not only guarantee that you you'll be able to read and you can read it just as a human but also as in terms of opening the file in the future. Most most programs will will do that. But with KeyCAD, when you finish a design and it ships off to production, you could just you can take key CAD itself, the program, and archive it with your design and Judy Warner (19:12.268) Mm-hmm. Seth (19:29.183) Put it in your in your storage. So in five years, 10 years, 20 years from now, you need to open that design again, and you need a guarantee that what you're looking at is exactly 100% what you were looking at when it was built. You can you can do that with KeyCat because Judy Warner (19:37.322) Mm-hmm. Seth (19:55.698) We're it's we're we're open source. We want you to make copies of our software. And that is that ability to guarantee long term compatibility and long-term licenses. You will never lose your own intellectual property. As a company working in the on KeyCad, you will never lose your own intellectual property because you didn't make a license payment. So it it it becomes a a guarantee of stability over a over a long term. So companies that are looking at looking 10, 15, 20 years down the road and want to reduce their own liability, liability, key cat's a great option for them. Judy Warner (20:30.124) Mm-hmm. Judy Warner (20:47.976) I can see why that would so appeal to companies like Aerospace that do have legacy designs and then they want to go back and do it again. It's like, you know, of course if it's ITAR, you'll store it for however long. But it seems like that also be a good use case for automotive. Seth (20:53.023) Yeah. Seth (21:02.78) Mm-hmm. Right. Seth (21:08.349) With without a doubt. And it everyone can you can always store output files. Like everyone can and you can read output files Gerber files. Everyone reads Gerber files, ODB plus plus. Doesn't capture design intent. That's the thing. And try to edit right? A after after you've already built this, you like you have put together your schematic and linked it with your board. You have your full bill of materials, you have Judy Warner (21:18.048) Doesn't capture design intent though and Seth (21:37.792) all of your infinite number of layers where you're documenting things precisely and you want all of this information it's not going to be there in your in in your output. Like that's a that's a minimal subset of of information and the ability to have a to like open that back up and make modifications. Like you you need it you need to spin this up again and this part is gone out of out of production. You need to come up come up with a re a replacement, different footprint, maybe a little little bit different wiring. You're just making a modification. If you don't necessarily want to be locked in to an ecosystem like now I have to purchase a new license in whatever the license terms are today to Judy Warner (22:10.358) Mm-hmm. Seth (22:37.531) edit this thing that I built twenty years ago, I you have no idea what those license terms are going to be. So it's a it's a it's it's a really useful argument. It's a useful useful tool for businesses that have kind of a long term mindset to them. Judy Warner (22:44.404) Right. Judy Warner (22:55.57) Yeah, which you know, in these AI machine learning days and cybersecurity and geopolitical tensions, all of that is becoming not less important, more important. And we keep throwing things up in the cloud and not you know, it's a messy landscape. But the thing when you and I talked ahead of time as a you know, former fabricator, which by the way is really fun. So I'm in Temecula now. I so I'm in Southern California as well. But I lived in Orange County for most of my life. And I've called on I've worked with JPL, Rockeddyne, and GC. Like when when you're saying the dots all over the map, I'm like, and that place, and that place, and that place. So Skunkworks up in Palmdale, like I can just see all and and and can see. but I never knew why that had come up. But Seth (23:37.417) Yes. Mm-hmm. And that's there. Right, right? Seth (23:44.595) Mm-hmm. Judy Warner (23:51.713) Those companies are leaning more and more into this. And there's not always this, in fact, there's rarely that kind of transparency that tells them what the design intent was. Now, what happens if the fabricator comes back to you and says, we need a a different clearance here, and we say thumbs up. Does how does that work? Can can little details like that throw that off in the future? Or how do you manage that? Seth (24:23.337) So any modification that you that you make, you are going to want to redo your DRC checks afterwards. So that's another part of the of keeping the whole design intent. You're gonna keep your design rule file with this as well, with with this thing that you've that you've archived so can go back through and rerun those same those same design rules. If you're if you're changing Judy Warner (24:35.638) Got it. Judy Warner (24:47.178) Right. Seth (24:53.241) if you're modifying your clearance requirements, you're gonna have to drag some tracks around. You're gonna have to like move make some small adjustments on your board. Every adjustment that you make on a production board is a danger. And everyone knows this. Yeah. Judy Warner (25:00.82) Right. Judy Warner (25:09.172) Yeah, well that's what I think of the old yeah, well it's a I think sometimes for some engineers, it's a blind spot. They're like, Yeah, go ahead. And they don't capture it on their end, but I think this sort of forces accountability and that your archive record is going to be accurate because the mess that happens there with that handoff, I think what you're saying, if you you've created transparency and a workflow that locks that in both now Seth (25:18.121) Mm-hmm. Judy Warner (25:38.089) And historically, and because you can see the code, there's full transparency, and they're not having IP threats, secure you know, all the things, right? But if say you did run that DRC again and it was you drag traces around, running a DRC with all the exact right constraints in there, it's gonna say whoops. Seth (25:44.105) There is. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Judy Warner (26:04.064) This thing over here just blew out because you moved the spacing, right? Then you're then it avoids the it can avoid the whack a mole thing where you may make one adjustment and not realize it had implications on something else. But running it back Yeah. Seth (26:07.835) Well yeah. Seth (26:16.823) your push and shove ro yeah, your push and shove router has to obey the DRC rules. Like if if you're running if you're running a software package that doesn't follow DRC during your routing, you're wasting money because then you're right, you're then you're paying your expensive engineer to like try and eyeball it and run like do this slow process of move it Judy Warner (26:22.646) Got it. Good. Judy Warner (26:33.289) Yeah. Judy Warner (26:43.99) Yeah. Seth (26:45.949) Run DRC, move it, run DRC No, this that's that's very, very old school and we want our engineers focused on engineering problems, not futzing problems. Judy Warner (26:48.001) Yeah. Judy Warner (26:58.718) Yeah. Well, I've just I've lived on the fabricator end where the front end engineer is getting messy files and they call back and then it creates the delay and the miscommunications and you know that's the part that I've observed. You know, I'm not a a a layout person. I have worked with closely with design engineers and I've worked on the manufacturing side and I know the mess. Seth (27:07.687) Mm, sure. Judy Warner (27:25.394) the difficulties it caused on the fabrication is it just sounds like a little tighter process not only for the person that initiated the design and capture that design intent, but it also sounds like it will the result will probably be a cleaner handoff that'll stop some of that noisy back and forth. So Seth (27:35.839) Mm. Seth (27:44.384) Without a doubt. Yeah. Yeah. With a without a doubt. And the the more we can put the tools in the hands of the engineer who's actually doing the work, then the less we end up with a whoops, time to respin, right? so so in in that in that sense, you know, key CAD does do a lot. Judy Warner (27:58.326) Yeah. Judy Warner (28:07.084) Right. Right. Seth (28:14.207) to support modern file formats. We support the Gerber X2 and X3 formats, as well as ODB, 2581, are you know the new hotness out there. I don't know if if Herman thinks it's it's all that new. but yeah we're we we try to ensure that not only do we support legacy formats like GenCAD for for output, but for customers who need it, you know, we do support old things as well. But we also, output-wise, we try to stay right at that cutting edge so that when you're looking to take one step further, we're not the roadblock. Like we always want to be there when you are looking to do the next Judy Warner (28:51.669) Right. Judy Warner (29:05.013) Right. Seth (29:11.731) the next thing, the next thing in your process or the next thing in your in your design or development. Judy Warner (29:19.262) Okay, so the big elephant in the room is how do you keep this free and open source if you've got tools inside of you know, small, medium or enterprise level companies? And I I know it's very community driven, but I'd like you to unpack that a little bit more because I think there's questions about somebody's gonna buy Kat is the world's gonna end or Seth (29:32.927) Mm-hmm. Seth (29:40.286) Yeah. Judy Warner (29:46.694) You know, whatever. You know the the urban myths that go on in the internet. And so yeah, so I'd like to hear from the horse's mouth what the actual truth is. Seth (29:47.102) Yeah. Right. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. So yeah. So yeah, thirty-five years of building, we're and we're not slowing down. And our license, so the key CAD license places restrictions on key CAD, on KeyCAD, the organization, and grants rights to anyone who uses KeyCAD. So if you are using KeyCAD, you get nothing but rights. You are guaranteed that the software is never going to be walled off. You are guaranteed that there's never going to be a like a a a Judy Warner (30:27.231) Mm-hmm. Seth (30:45.523) proprietary core and then free outside or or Judy Warner (30:49.545) You mean like a Autodesk Eagle moment? Seth (30:53.315) i I can't speak directly to what that is, but but Abs you know, when Autodesk bought Eagle, there were a lot of people who weren't happy with that and I Judy Warner (30:57.299) Well, it you know, I mean eagle yes, yes. Well, they kept saying it was gonna be free, free, free, free, free. S and then they said, just kidding, we're charging and again all the all the torches and pitchforks came out and understandably. So again, I'm asking from a Seth (31:08.745) They did, they did, and turn yeah. Right, right. And you can do that when you own things, right? When you when you own the software, you can make those kinds of decisions, and the guarantee is only as good as your word. In KeyCAD's case, we license the software to people who download it. When you download KeyCAD, you get a license. Judy Warner (31:40.523) Got it. Mm. Seth (31:46.042) Which is a legally binding contract that has been held up in United States courts, in European courts, the that says that we are not allowed to change key CAD in a way that would take away your rights. So that is as strong. Judy Warner (32:11.665) Okay, so it's there's a legal mm-hmm. Seth (32:14.031) as you could possibly as as strong of a guarantee as you could possibly get, which is not to say, you know, KeyCAD, anyone can look at the source. Anyone can do anything they want with it. If if you know Bobco showed up and wanted to make EDA software, they could download Key CAD software. They could go into the code, change all the names from KeyCAD to BobCAD, and right it you they could release it. And that would be perfectly fine. That would be perfectly legal. They could do that. But because of the license, the one thing they're not allowed to do is they're not allowed to then not share their changes. So if they make source code changes, like changing key CAD to BobCAD, they and then they distribute BobCAD, they also have to distribute the source code. So even if Judy Warner (33:04.491) Mm. Seth (33:13.119) Someone came along and made a way better Key CAD. You know, we've made like it's now infused with AI. Right? they could do that, but they're still required to release the source code to the entire world, just like KeyCAD does. We release every bit of source code to the entire world, and that guarantee is what. Judy Warner (33:33.567) Okay. Seth (33:42.972) gives businesses who use Key CAD an assurance, a legal assurance that their investment in time and effort and manpower of learning Key CAD, of integrating Key CAD with their processes, will never be wasted. Like that will it will there will never be a moment where it pulls the rug out from underneath them. Judy Warner (34:04.437) So it's it's completely beautiful. Right. Well, I'm sure I'm sure all your communion users know this very, very well. I'm just thinking about people who who may not know it here. And so what you're saying is there's a a a legal s binding agreement here that will not allow that where they hijack your tool or your time or your n investment. Seth (34:26.814) Right. Judy Warner (34:33.417) Like that cannot be revoked legally. So that's Seth (34:35.835) Yeah. They you can do it, right? You like I said, you can do it. You you'll see KeyCAD clones out there. They're they're all over the place. But what they don't have is they don't have a community of almost a million engineers around the world working with the tool. Like we we earlier this year at DesignCon. Judy Warner (34:57.439) Wow. Seth (35:04.359) know we were talking numbers and I was like, you know, 750,000 monthly, monthly users, people who fire up Key CAD one at least once a month and do something with it. that number's gone up. So we are we are with 10, we're getting more and more businesses and individuals, startups, large companies coming in and using KeyCAD more and more. And these are just the people who like keep the update checking on. Like this is the only way we know numbers is because there's an update check. You can turn off if you want to, but if you check for updates, it'll go out to the key CAD server and say, you know, I have version 10.04. Do you have a new version for me? And servers will come back and say, yeah, 10.05 is available. Would you like to download it? That's that's how the update check works. And we use that to count Judy Warner (35:59.796) Mm-hmm. Seth (36:03.879) numbers. It's an anonymized, it's an anonymized thing. We don't keep track of who's asking or where they're asking from, but we do keep track of the absolute numbers. And the absolute numbers are continually growing and we see hundreds of thousands of key CAD users every single day using Key CAD to to make stuff. So in that sense, it's a large community. Judy Warner (36:05.547) Got it. Seth (36:33.565) were were very community driven. But the finances for KeyCAD, which I think loop back to your questions, a lot of people are like, you give software away. How do you make money? No. I mean, how does Yeah, right. Right. Well, d I mean, everyone everyone knows Red Hat, right? And R Red Hat sells Linux software. Linux is the same thing. It's the same sort of idea of this free software. Judy Warner (36:41.3) Mm-hmm. Judy Warner (36:45.875) Right. How d my s like, how do you keep the lights on, Seth? Seth (37:03.345) Anyone can download, you have to give back any changes that you make. But Red Hat exists as a business interface. And in KeyCAD Services, we exist as a business interface for the largely predominantly US market, but not just. Not just. We have there's a European support arm as well called KeyCAD Europe. they're based out of Estonia. Key CAD Services, we are based out of Long Beach, California. Judy Warner (37:11.882) Mm. Judy Warner (37:27.531) Mm-hmm. Seth (37:32.18) And we sell support contracts. We provide training. So we fly out to businesses and we'll provide on-site training. We do webinar-based training. And we also provide custom services, custom development. So many times a company will come in and say, we would use KeyCAD, but we need this thing. Like there's this one thing that our old CAD software did that we really need Key CAD to do, how much did it c would it cost to build this into Key CAD? And what we do is we provide a quote. And a lot of companies are really surprised because I mean, depending on the size of the company, the quote for the feature development is usually less than their annual contract with whatever software they were using. There's not Judy Warner (38:29.588) Right. Seth (38:30.787) you know, it's depending on depending on what the feature is, depending on what the so we we we do a lot of development that way. So that you know that that pays for a bit. And then we have we we have contracts with individual individual manufacturers to to link their their manufacturing process into KeyCAD. So if you order Judy Warner (38:40.714) Mm-hmm. Judy Warner (38:58.002) Mm. Seth (38:59.473) If you order a board through say PCB Way or Washo Next PCB is another one, or Sierra Circuits here in the US, if you order a board through them using the KeyCAD plugin, which is just a little, you know, the plug-in puts a little button on there, makes it easier for you to send your your designs to a to a a fabricator. Judy Warner (39:14.847) Mm-hmm. Right. Seth (39:28.497) If you use that, then they pay Key CAD a certain amount. And we use those funds for development. Those don't go directly to Key CAD services. Like there are two different things, right? Key CAD services, we do the we do the business funding stuff, and we hire programmers and we pay for features and and things. And then Key CAD as a as a nonprofit organization takes has Judy Warner (39:36.746) Got it. Judy Warner (39:40.702) Right. Mm-hmm. Seth (39:58.196) gets donations from the community, gets this this interaction from from fabricators, it gets grants that that come in. So there's there's like a little chunk of the pie, maybe 25% or so over there that is that is community based. And then there's this large business based 75% of our of our funding comes from business interaction. So basically training support and Judy Warner (40:04.235) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Seth (40:28.115) Custom development. Judy Warner (40:29.973) Got it. Well, I love the model and and I think the the nod to Linux and Red Hat is helpful, especially for me. I that's not my world, but that makes perfect sense. where do you think so you guys have come a long way and I thank you for unpacking this and being patient with all my questions over the last several times we've talked. and I think that our community be really interested in in and learning about how far you've come. And so two questions back to back. One is w how does Key Site Corporate Services think about AI in PCB design? That's question number two. I mean question number one, question number two is what's your On your roadmap, where do you think Kik has gonna be in the next two to five years or sort of where are you setting your sights? Seth (41:31.007) Mm. Hmm. Well, let's see, let's well, yeah, they are big questions. I was gonna say, you know, that AI one, that's because I mean if if you if you show me someone who knows what AI is going to do to our industry, I will right I I've I have a bridge to sell ya. So it it like they are they are blowing smoke, right? Judy Warner (41:37.077) Those are kind of two big questions, but sorry. I know. Judy Warner (41:53.374) Yeah. Judy Warner (41:58.015) Right. Your perception right. Nobody knows. I know. Seth (42:03.223) There or no no nobody knows. Everyone like there's a lot of money going into into this in an attempt to bring that to to something that is profitable. And people people look at it, they're like, you know, this is going to be insanely profitable if we can just figure out how to do these iterations faster. Maybe it's going to work. And there are some really smart people working on this, right? the peop d we we talked about a a few of them, Quilters working on this, Instadeep, they're working on it. there are a couple a couple others. you know and we work with we work directly with them because I I love this idea. The the the idea that we're that there are more tools out there in the tool belt. Judy Warner (42:37.183) Mm-hmm. Judy Warner (43:02.944) Yeah. Seth (43:03.143) Is really exciting for for me as an engineer and I think for a number of people in the industry. And it's and it's on some people a little more concerned because Judy Warner (43:20.571) I have people just, you know, yelling at me on LinkedIn. And I'm like, I get it. Seth (43:26.203) Absolutely. And it's it's gotten it's gotten almost to the point where it's, I don't know, political or something. That that there's that people are really on one side or the other. I'll tell you, we do we do key CAD conferences. We do three KAG conferences a year. One in the United States, one in Europe, and one in China. And I will tell you that the European Conference is. has been historically in the past few years very anti-AI. They're like not not like burn the bridges down, not not not burn the bridges down sort of thing, but it is not warmly received. And there's there's a lot more skepticism there that AI has anything valid to offer at all. And then we'll go Judy Warner (44:05.087) This does not surprise me, said No. Judy Warner (44:18.463) Mm-hmm. Seth (44:24.819) Then we do Ki CAD Asia in in in China. We do it in Shenshen, which is an absolutely amazing city. I'm just stunned by the change that Shenzhen has gone through over the past 20 years. But that's kind of a side point. That conference, the AI is oozing out of every single talk. If if Judy Warner (44:40.201) Yeah. Judy Warner (44:51.369) Yes. Yes. Seth (44:54.489) if the talk isn't about how to use AI more effectively, then AI was used to build the thing. It it it is very strong strongly focused on building tools to build things. And then the United States it's kind of like half and half. Like we it's it but it's not it's not an it's not a homogenized mixture, right? It's it's more like Judy Warner (45:12.339) Mm-hmm. Judy Warner (45:17.386) Right. Judy Warner (45:23.538) No, well it Seth (45:24.207) It it's more like we have like a like a black and white cookie. We got the one side on this side, one side on that side, and there's there's a lot of argument going on and we're gonna figure out. We're gonna figure out where this goes as time progresses. But from our from the from the d I won't say from the key CAD perspective, that because that's unfair, because there are a lot of people involved in key CAD and we don't all agree. I will say from my perspective and from the Key CAD Services Corporation perspective, what we're looking at is we're looking at the ways that these tools can benefit engineers. And if all you're trying to do is put engineers out of a job, I don't think that you're going to be successful. I don't think that company is going to be successful because you don't have Judy Warner (46:20.222) That's a bad idea. Seth (46:22.481) right, you don't if you lose the expertise, you're losing the ability to judge veracity, you're losing the ability to judge safety, you're losing the ability to judge the efficacy of your system that you're building. And you're gonna pond it off to to a machine that was gonna make mistakes and that's fine. Tools are not infallible, but you need a skill exactly. You need a skilled a skilled operator and you need someone who is going to work well with the two like if if I took a hammer and a plane out to like a like a a a hammer and a plane out and tried to build Judy Warner (46:57.96) Yeah, but who's gonna check the tool? Seth (47:22.311) Something out of a stack of logs, I would just make a hash of it. It like and have broken things all over the place. But those same tools in the hands of someone who knows how to use them can build an entire house. And it's that operator efficiency that I think is where. we are going to see the biggest gains. And so from the keyCAD perspective, we want to facilitate those tools. We want to facilitate what the engineers are doing. Whether that is using AI to speed up their processes or do additional data sheet checks or route their traces. if that's what you want to do with with your AI, that's we want to support that. We want you to be able to do that. And we're going to give those, give you those tools and those options to do that. And a lot of these AI companies that are springing up around hardware design are using KeyCAD specifically because we are open to that level of of interaction. So Judy Warner (48:42.984) Right. Seth (48:44.829) The file format is text-based, well documented. AI can like use that. If we are fully scriptable, so we have our own built-in scripting language that AI tools can go in and interact with KeyCAD that way. And all of these things put together allow these companies that want to build this, they they they don't have to build an EDA tool anymore. They take KeyCAD. And they put their own things, like connect their own bits and bobs to it and have that move their their process, their process forward. I think the ones who are going to be successful are the ones who are focused on making engineers better. just per personal opinion. so we're we're not Judy Warner (49:16.285) Right. Judy Warner (49:23.975) Right. Judy Warner (49:34.89) Couldn't agree more, Seth. Mm-hmm. Seth (49:40.936) Not all of them are doing that, but you know, not all of them are gonna make it either. So just kind of kind of see where that happens. Yeah, hope hopefully hopefully without too many casualties is the is the idea. Because you know, you're when you're dealing with hardware, that's a physical object in the real world and mistakes have real world consequences. So from from our perspective, we we just want to make sure that where Judy Warner (49:45.65) No. The bad ideas all burn off. Hopefully. Hopefully. Yeah. Judy Warner (50:03.39) Yeah. Seth (50:09.609) where what we're building is is safe, effective and verifiable. Judy Warner (50:15.85) There it is. Safe, effective, and verifiable. That should be the mantra for everything. Because yeah, the risks are so high, as you said. well Seth, this has been so interesting and I really appreciate your time and patience with me over our last conversations, but I'm absolutely positive that that our community will so appreciate hearing and learning from you directly and learning about you know what what Seth (50:22.207) Right. Judy Warner (50:44.942) I think you have the built-in safety piece is that you're developing this in the community. And it's like democracy. The politicians can't get too out of hand, right? If the people, the community is bubbling up intelligence and things that you're not seeing or coming up with good ideas or whatever, or will say, Hey, throw on the brakes. Here's a risk that maybe they surface that. you hadn't thought about. So I really find a lot of value in the way that you're building around community of real hardware engineers. And I think there's nothing like that that I can think of. Maybe in Linux case there is, but certainly not in PCB design. So well done. I'm very supportive of everything you're doing and really appreciate your time and explaining it to me and our community. Seth (51:45.024) Judy, well I really appreciate your having me on. And I'm one one person in a very large group of individuals who have contributed to building this. So I I I hope that I've represented it well and we'll we'll see. I and and if you do have any other questions or anyone else has any questions, feel free to reach out. We're always happy to talk to engineers and designers about how to make their jobs easier. Judy Warner (52:18.484) So how can people get in touch with you and get sort of connected to your ecosystem community and learn more about you? Seth (52:27.273) Sure. so keycad.org is the website. You can reach me, Seth at KeyCAD.org, if you'd like to reach out and send me an email. I'd be happy to chat with you. There's also a number of online places that you can find KeyCAD. we have a forum that you can ask questions on, and you can also ping us on any of the social media sites, LinkedIn. Judy Warner (52:36.34) Mm-hmm. Seth (52:56.995) X, Blue Sky, Mastodon, any of these any of these things though they'll get to us eventually and if and we're happy to engage with anyone who has questions about how to work better, how to get their job done. Judy Warner (53:15.964) Excellent. You mentioned before I let you go, you mentioned they have three conferences a year. where w what where are your net when are your next conferences coming up and do you have a an event web page or something so people can look that those up? Seth (53:27.933) Mm-hmm. Seth (53:31.625) We do, we do. It's the keycon.keyCAD dot org is going to be the event webpage. The next one coming up is going to be in September in Volchum, Germany. That'll be our KeyCon Europe. And then November we'll have KeyCon Asia and Shenzhen, as I mentioned. And then twenty twenty seven we'll have KeyCon US again. and that will be that will be listed on the website. That'll be in San Jose this this coming year. Judy Warner (53:43.626) Mm. Judy Warner (53:58.922) Fun, right in the middle of the action here in California, Silicon Valley. Well, great. Well, again, Seth, thank you again for your time. I appreciate it. And thanks for myth busting and teaching us, giving us an update on everything you're doing. And congratulations to you and the whole community for what you've built here. And I wish you all the best. And I'll look forward to doing this again later in the year. Seth (54:02.313) Right. Seth (54:23.441) Excellent. Well, I look forward to seeing you again in person soon, Judy. Judy Warner (54:27.548) Yeah, I'm sure we'll bump into each other soon, Seth. Seth (54:32.095) All right. Take care. Judy Warner (54:34.516) To our audience, thanks so much for joining us again. I trust you've enjoyed this conversation with Seth Hillbrand. I'll put all the links he's mentioned. I'll go to their website, pull them out, I'll put them in the show notes for you so you can go click to those resources and and go dig in yourself on things you might be interested in. Thanks for joining us this week. We'll see you next time. Until then, remember to always stay connected to the ecosystem.