Judy Warner (00:01) Hi David, thanks so much for joining us again today. Excited to do our Q4 update from PCBAA. Why don't you take a moment to introduce yourself to our audience and then I'm looking forward to hearing your update. David (00:16) Thanks, Judy. It's always great to be with you. I'm David Schill, the executive director of the Printed Circuit Board Association of America. think most of your listeners know, but some might be hearing for the first time, that we're the educate, advocate, and legislate trade association in Washington, representing the entire Printed Circuit Board ecosystem. Judy Warner (00:35) So it's the end of year and I know there's been so much going on ⁓ in Washington DC as you know when it comes to AI, electronics, infrastructure and so many things. So I'm sure you have lots to share. So why don't you give us an update from our last discussion till now some of the major updates and forward motion that you're seeing there at the. printed circuit board, Association America. David (01:06) Yeah, Judy, when we look at what's in the news and where the policy focuses in Washington right now, it overlaps so well with our mission to reshore and restore PCB manufacturing capacity. And let me talk about how that's sort of coming to market in Washington, D.C., right? You see a couple of different things happening. There's a real emphasis right now at the Pentagon on autonomous systems, a desire as we look at the conflict in Ukraine and how those supply chains are built. or being interrupted to make sure that we can build things like drones here in America because we see that they're part of the future of warfare. And so when the Pentagon talks about we want to have a domestic drone supply chain, what I hear is we're going to need a lot of printed circuit boards and the raw and refined materials that are necessary to bring those boards to life to have a domestic drone industry. so I participated with a number of other companies in the AUVSI Defense Forum just last month in Washington, DC. One of my co-panelists was from Nero's Technologies, a really exciting startup that is already doing work to build drones here in the United States. And I'm proud to announce that they're the newest member of the PCBA. So we're expanding again into another category of OEM. But one of the big takeaways, Judy, at that conference was that now there is this intersection between what's called industrial policy in Washington, right? Do we build things in America again and national security? And that those two things are really inextricably linked, that our ability to produce industrial products at scale, to manufacture things, to make technology is really, really important for our war fighters, for our men and women in uniform. Judy Warner (02:47) It is true, David, that we're seeing how this affects the world in real time on the news almost nightly. Before we hopped on, we were talking about Nero's who I've interviewed here on the podcast and they're here in Los Angeles. They're building 100 % domestic product and I'm really excited about this startup. They're doing amazing things, but ⁓ really they helped me to understand how critical this is and how absolutely dominant China has been in the drone manufacturing space and how we really need to have a strong base here. So let's dive into a little more. know you were also on a panel not too long ago ⁓ with US and China. Can you talk a little bit more about that and the progress there? David (03:41) Yeah, so this summer I was fortunate enough to testify before the United States China Security Economic and Review Commission. And one of the things that that commission does under charter from Congress is produce a report annually. Now, my testimony was part of a panel on the Chinese dominance of certain industries that included semiconductors and pharmaceuticals. And of course, I was there on behalf of our members to talk about how over the last three decades, China has really come to dominate the PCB market. know, Judy, that we used to have 2200 companies in the United States making boards. Now we have less than 150. Most of that work has gone to Asia. A lot of it's gone to China so that today, six out of 10 boards are made in mainland China and that presents real industrial policy and national security concerns. Well, the commission came out with their report to Congress just a few weeks ago. Printed circuit boards feature very prominently, right? The report cites a number of threats, but basically says, hey, this is an area where one of our global competitors, one of our global adversaries has essentially achieved manufacturing dominance. And really importantly, what the report says is that Congress and the administration should treat the printed circuit board ecosystem as equally important to the semiconductor ecosystem. Because as we often say on this show, Jody, ⁓ don't float, right? And if we're going to make a Chips and Science Act investment in print circuit boards, or in semiconductors, we need to make a similar investment in print circuit boards. And so I was really thrilled to be a part of that commission hearing in June. I'm very excited that the report echoes the things that were said at that hearing. And it's just one more piece of evidence that we can put in front of the administration, in front of members of Congress to say, hey, lots of trusted third party voices, lots of academics. are coming to the same conclusion that the leaders of our industry have come to. And that is that we need to reinvest, and we need to basically level the playing field. Judy, as I've talked about, American companies aren't losing to foreign companies, they're losing to foreign governments by way of subsidies, and support and critical investments. And we cannot sit on the sidelines. Our government's got to be involved. Judy Warner (05:49) Well, and I've lived it. We've talked about this before and it results in the loss of jobs, which isn't good. so our audience, ⁓ know, hardware engineers, David, are really concerned about losing jobs, right? And ⁓ most R &D in the world is done here. But again, we need security, we need infrastructure. So ⁓ we can secure that national ⁓ IP that we have. and do more. So I'm really glad to hear the traction that you're getting and the growth and membership, but let's talk about our audience a little bit. ⁓ Do you think engineers should worry about losing their jobs to AI and how does that dovetail into the kind of work that you're doing on Capitol Hill? David (06:38) Well, you know, I'm glad you brought up AI, Judy, because one of the things that we are very focused on is these huge data center build out projects and where are we getting that technology from? Certainly in the United States, right? We are all concerned about the implications of AI. But as I look at the construction and you drive by data centers being built all over the country, of course, I ask that question that I always ask, what's inside and where is it coming from? And right now we know that almost 80 % of the content inside a lot of these data centers is coming from China. And of course, if you're going to say that AI is a technology that we need to have a leadership position in, and these data centers are part of a critical infrastructure that gives the United States not just economic competitiveness, but a robust national security advantage, well, then you have to say, where's the technology coming from? And of course, right now, a lot of it's coming from China. So we would love to see a large commercial industry that can produce printed circuit boards for these data centers. Judy, we've talked about this before, but There's no desire to ⁓ disassemble the global economy, right? The microelectronics that you find in dishwashers and remote controls, those aren't coming back to the United States. But when you talk about the water and power grid, medical devices, aerospace and defense concerns, and of course, I think the data centers that sort of help to power modern life, we ought to be a little more diligent about the restrictions, the requirements. You're already seeing some of that leadership from the Trump administration, but I think that there's more we can do. And it starts with asking the tough question. Where is this technology coming from? Judy Warner (08:08) And if you do get that support, my sense is David, that it will actually empower and onshore more jobs for hardware engineers that can not only design it here, but build it here. And that's my hope anyways. just doing a gut check to see if I'm being naive about the situation and. David (08:28) don't think so at all, Judy. And I'm so glad you brought up jobs because there is a unique opportunity, I think, for folks in microelectronics vis-a-vis some of our national security priorities. And let me be specific about what I mean. You've seen recently two big announcements, right? First, the Pentagon said we want to triple the number of critical interceptors that we ⁓ buy, right? Things like the Patriot missile system, the AIM-9X, the Javelin, because they are looking at their arsenals for future conflicts all over the world and saying, hey, we've been burning through a lot of these stockpiles. This is really advanced technology. Of course, it all rests on a bed of microelectronics made here in America. If you're going to buy three times as many missiles, you're going to need three times as many printed circuit boards. That's a huge surge that I don't think right now we have the capacity to support, right? Investments from the Pentagon are critical. The other program you've heard talked a lot about is Golden Dome, right? A really advanced missile defense system. Well, of course, there's almost no part of a structure like that that is not going to rely on advanced microelectronics. So once again, we've got to make sure we can connect the aspirations of our national leadership with our industrial capacity. And so our primes are obviously concerned about this and it flows down into their suppliers that include PCB manufacturers. We want the United States to be able to field these systems that we depend on, but we're going to need to make some investments to see that happen. Judy Warner (09:46) So as we wrap up here, David, what is your sense as you sort of look back retrospectively across the entire year of 2025? ⁓ I know because we've discussed that you've had a lot of significant milestone. Give us the pulse of sort of the feedback you're getting directly from Congress and and sort of the traction of getting that message across in a very noisy landscape of DC. David (10:17) Yeah, know, Judy, ⁓ of course I'm distressed when the government shuts down or when we don't see legislative progress, but by and large, this fourth year for PCBA has been a great one. As you know, we started with five members. We're at 80 members as of today and that number continues to grow. I'm hoping to come back when we pass 100 to celebrate that milestone on your show. We continue to diversify our membership as well. So now, of course, it's not just board shops, it's raw and refined materials companies, it's OEMs, it's assembly organizations. You know, we're seeing a real diversity and that translates into more political power because it's more dots on the map. It's more locations across the United States that are represented in Washington. Really thrilled that we participated in a record number of trade shows this year, including PCB West and Apex. Very excited that we got in front of the Congress to testify that we had our biggest annual meeting ever in Washington, where we took almost 70 executives up to Capitol Hill to lobby directly on behalf of our industry's issues. So. You know, really an amazing year for the association as we continue to grow and expand the work that we're doing. And I'm really excited for what lies ahead in 2026. Judy Warner (11:21) That's a good report, my friend. you know, as an old PCB gal, I'm really glad to and excited to hear about the progress you're making. For our listeners, the engineers of the world, ⁓ what would you like to tell them how to maybe become part of PCBAA ⁓ and your mission? And how can they find out more about your organization and how to get involved? David (11:47) Well, Judy, first, as we come to the end of the year, let me thank you for all the support that you've given to our program and spreading the word, right? Our mission is educate, advocate and legislate. And you're putting us in front of a lot of key listeners and important audiences. So thank you. If you want to learn more about the Printed Circuit Board Association of America, please don't hesitate to contact me. Visit us at PCBAA.org or follow us on any social media channels like X or LinkedIn. We are putting out a lot of information about our activities. and we want to learn more about you and your organization and how being a part of our growing team in Washington can help your business and your bottom line. Judy Warner (12:25) For our audience, let me just encourage you that the bigger the voice PCBAA has, ⁓ and that voice can include yours, really goes a long way to catch the attention of legislators. So ⁓ I hope you'll become a member like I am and engage. I'll put the links for you below in the ⁓ show notes. David, thank you again for joining us. I look forward to that hundred. 100th member and hopefully we'll celebrate that in Q1. You have a great team working for you on the membership campaign. So continued good luck to you and good health as you roll into the new year. David (13:08) Thanks, Judy. Happy holidays to you and yours. Judy Warner (13:11) For our listeners, make sure you go check out those show notes below and please connect with PCBAA. We'll see you next week. Until then, remember to always stay connected to the ecosystem.